Kaidi's interview in Estonian "Vikerraadio" on 14. March 2013

Introduction

(Hosted and interviewed by Krista Taim)

Today we will be talking with a dancer from Cairo Opera House, estonian woman Kaidi Udris. She has been living in Egypt since last summer and has realized many of her dreams in Cairo, the capital of this politically boiling country.

Life works in mysterious ways. We make plans a certain way but life takes over and things turn out to be compleatly different. The last time we spoke with Kaidi it was May 2012 and she had suprised all her friendes, family and dance students as she decided to continue her dance career in Egypt, fly to the already then revolutionary country with a one-way ticket and become an oriental dancer there, learn more and start her career in the home of oriental dance. But now she works in a fancy Cairo Opera House, for the opening of which Giuseppe Verdi at the time wrote the famous opera „Aida“.

We will get to the opera topic later but first, please tell us, how has all this time been for you there?

Salaam We Aleykum! Im now back in Estonia, because exacly 7 month has been the time for me after which I had started to miss my home country and I felt I need a small break from the life in Egypt.

From bellydance to Cairo Opera

So how has this 7 month been for you? When you left You only has a one-way ticket and you hoped you will become a dancer there? Did this wish come true?

Yes, that was my plan. In a way it did come true and in a way it didn’t. It came true in a way that I have found dance work and a new dance world for myself in Cairo but it also didn’t come true as I don’t work as an oriental dancer there, but dance in the Cairo Opera House and I have discovered a compleatly new and exciting world with in it. My career as oriental dancer is now only happening in Europe, when I decide to leave Egypt for teaching and foriegn festivals.

What work is it in Opera, what’s this dance?

Im dancing in a contemporary dance company „Forsan el Shark“, which means the horseman of the East. Its a specific dance company that brings traditional egyptian folk stories to the opera stage, but does that in the lanquage of contemporary dance. It’s an opposite world to the oriental dance here, because as I have now learnt the dance society here is very hirarchically stratified and Cairo Opera belongs to the high class of dance. Oriental dance is actually considered as a low class of dancing.

But how did you manage to get into this company in the first place?

It was very unexpected for me. In connecion with an estonian oriental dancer from Sharm el Sheikh, I got to know her friend in Cairo, he was already a Cairo Opera House dancer. Her invited me to see „The Contemporary Dance Night“ performances in American University of Cairo. So I did and by luck I was there introduced to the director and choreographer of the company, Karima Pder. She was totally excited by the news that there is a new foreign dancer in town and invited me for an open audition straight away. Knowing the high class dance people in this event I decided not to tell anyone who I really was – a professional oriental dancer looking for oriental dance work. But I was not frightened by this unexpected audition invitation as I had strong practice in modern dance from my university times (I graduated from Tallinn University, faculty of choreography) and I decided to take the chance, come what may!

But for how long time since you moved to Egypt did you actually spend time in the oriental dance world?

For the first one month I was doing research in Cairo, met oriental dancers and dance managers and got to know the „playground“. And straight after this the second month, durin Ramadan, I spent in Sharm el Sheikh working as a dancer in a folcloric dance company, occasionally doing solo oriental dance work too.

Within these two months I did active dance business research and at the end of it I understood that oriental dance in Egypt is fading and will probably not bloom for a long time, for as long as the country in in revolutionary state and as long as the islamists hold the power in Egypt. The touris industry is practically dried up and the fancy Nile boats and hotels that host the famous and prestigeous bellydance shows have so little audience that many shows are either cancelled or run very sheldom, compared to the golden times of tourists before The Arab Spring. Work is already little for the established dancers here and for prestigious work, in places mentioned before, is not available for new dancers. At least it wouldn’t be enough to make a normal living.

But for example, how did Sharm El Sheikh look like?

In my eyes it looked exactly like in the tourism magazines. I had heard so many things about this town by the many estonians who often visit it and enjoy it. But now having seen it from a dancer or worker point of view, Sharm for me is a boring and unimpressive resort where besides swimming and spending money there’s nothing more to do. Tourists, though, look happy there because Egypt is brough to them „wrapped in a golden paper“. They can buy their miniature pyramids, without every having to go and see the real things by their own eyes, see a bellydance show, performed normally by russian or european dancers, swim in the exotical Red rea and try the ethnic egyptian cuisine. So its an egyptian experiance without having to see the real breathing culture at the other side of Sinai penincula.

Well they would go to see the real Pyramids in Cairo, but they are scared to go because of the unrest in the capital.

Yes, these days they will probably think twice before decide to take the ourney to Cairo. But I have to say with the information I now have from some visiting friends and from tourist agents I personally know, tourists don’t even see the revolution, because they are cared for and looked after with extra attencion and they are never taken to places where there’s a danger to get too close to the fighting protesters. So tourism in Cairo is possible but just more risky than before.

The Egyptian Revolution

How much of the revolution and of the real Egyptian life have you seen during your stay in Egypt?

I went to the Tahrir Square myself on 25. January on 2013, the second anniversity of the revolution, it was daytime around noon. When I got there I was absolutely overwhelmed by how many different classes and people this revolution united. As it was daytime I felt  safe, I saw children and families, groups of friends even havining picknick on the square, I saw female rights activists, male rights activists, saw muslims and christians side by side – truly all kinds of people! So the first day of the anniversery Tahrir really was the safest. After that when the revolution grew bigger and clashed started in the northen and Delta towns of Egypt, revolutionaries in Cairo got more motivated and inspired and also more furious by the news of violance in the North. The streets were filled with more young angry men. The problem is, not all of them come out being politically motivated, but they come for action on the streets only and to make their otherwise dull life more adventurous. So unfortunatly, The Egyptian Revolution did start for humane ideas for better and just life but has already gotten a bad image with the violance, crime and new corruption that followed. Within a few days from the the anniversary the street clashes between the revolutionaries and police/security forces began. And for example, my work in the opera got postponed for a two weeks because the opera building is located in Zamalek island, just one bridge away from Tahrir Square. So as much as I wanted to, I simply couldnt go to dance, to my work, all Opera grounds were closed.

Tell me more about the wave of violance. We have heard terrible trories from the media about rapes and also crimes agains tourists who have curiously wondered to Tahrir and gotten hurt among other people.

If a foreigner decides to go to a revolutionary country’s heart of the revoltuion, to Tahrir, he will also take a big risk that he might not return alive. He can never know who are present on that certain day, who are wondering around and who have secretly been sent there to make trouble. The danger is real! Its a small war-zone, not a tourist attraction!

One type of violance is the direct fighting between the police forces protecting govermental buildings and the revolutionaries around Tahrir and the neighbourig streets, but also around the President Morsi Palace in area far away from downtown.

There is another type of violance that is directly effecting the normal Cairo citizen, its the  street crime. As all the security forces are chanallized to the revolution hot-spots, other livin areas stay unprotected and thieves and villains are more bold to go around scaring or attacking the normal people on streets. I heard a foreigner ballerina was robbed in my Dokki area in a normally very busy square, but as she was walking home after performance in Opera late at night, there was nobody there to go to help her. Another lady, close friend of mine, was in a threatening way asked to pay way more money for a taxi ride that  was worth only a little. This actually toutches a topic that I consider one of the after-effect of the revolution. The middle class working people are finding it harder and harder to make a living for their family and try to manage by scamming money out of foreigners, who are always believed to be „walking wallets“ in the eyes of many egyptians. Hunger and worry in the future might one day start the revolution of the hungry, so they say.

So how have you managed to avoid trouble on the streets? Have you been lucky?

Yes, I consider myself luck in this topic. But I also have limited myself in things that before the revolution were normal. For example I dont walk alone in the dark any more. I will walk with friends or take a taxi, but as I now know even all the taxies are not safe any more. One just has to know when and where to walk and when and weher not to walk! By following all this, its possible to live you normal routine life.

Do you also take your way of clothing into consideration? Do you cover yourself?

I dress the same way I did before the revolution. I havnt changed too much. There is one issue though. I have started to wear my hair tied, not covered but just in a ponitail or in braids because of a recent news in the media. There was an incident in Cairo metro, where a conservative muslim woman with black hair-covering abaya attacked a more liberally-dressed woman with loose hair. It was a so call „modesty-attack“ and it was to do with the new wave of conservative islam in the society. So that incident in the metro got me thinking I shouldn’t feel myself too European in a muslim country and most of the times I now walk hair tied.

Have you seen more of these extremist muslim women there, more than before?

I wouldnt say there are more agressive muslim women on streets, but I have noticed that there are actually less women on streets. This is because of the notorious public rape and sexual harrassment cases within the continuing revolution. Many women now are scared to come to the streets to demonstrate for the women rights. It is thought it is actually and organized goal of some conservative politcal muslim groups, to scare the women off the streets and therefore keep them away from politics.

Do You think all women be eventually made to wear covering abaya’s? What is the current situation of Egyptian women?

The more drama and attacks that occure in the matter of violance against women, the more fiercly the new-born female institiutions and grous they fight back.

So who are these women who fight back? Are these the liberal women, who want to participate in politics, social matters, who want to go out at nights or learn new things and not to cover themselves?

Its not really the question of are being liberal or not. All egyptian women for different classes have been victoms to street harrassment, in differnts forms. It can be physical („accidentally“ toutching or groping or rape) or oral-psycholocial (commenting, sweet-talking, insulting words). Many women who previously were never able to speak their stories and minds in the old regime are now coming out and demaning for justice and change. And on the positive side of the revolution, they are now allowed to join each other and organize into political female groups.

How many classes does Egypt have? Its easy to devide people to the rich and poor, but how is it in Egypt?

Egypt is a country of 84 milliuon people! I have seen the extreme rich and the extreme poor and the thousands of „colours“ inbetween. I happened to see the „creme de la creme“ of egyptian youth at an oriental dance performance in a beach club in a resort at the coast (did one trial gig in the first month of my stay in Egypt). These peoples dressed like at the Oscars Gala, but it was in a nightclub. All of them behaved very european and talked to each other in a funny mix of arabic, english and french. Not appearing or behaving like most of egyptians is a way to show their status and position.

I have aslo seen the extreme poor at the markets and streets of Cairo, where young and old alike are sleeping on the streets and usually living their day with a pound or two.

Egyptian people can also be divided into classes by religion, the biggest being islam and christianity. As for the latter, I see more and more rich christian families emigrating to Europe or America. They took this decision straight after the beginning of the revolution as they didnt see the furure for minority rights promisingly.

And lastly I have also witnissed the hierarchy and classes in the world of dance. These classes are aware of this division and they mostly keep seperate and dont mix too much. The high class of dance is Cairo Opera with its ballet and modern dance companies. The middle class of dance includes folkloric companies snd musical theatres. And the lower class of dance is considered to be oriental dancers. These classes have their own areas, their own usual hang-out cafeterias and meeting spots, but also their own mentalities, manners and their own methods of work and bussiness. As an example, when an opera dancer is seen sitting in the folk dancers cafeteria talking with folk dancers, this immediately gives material for gossip and questions. Egyptians like to talk and to be up to date with the general and inside information…whats happening, who is dancing where, who is making what money etc.

How many friends do You have in Egypt? Who are they?

Most of my friends are dancers and choreographers and actors. They are all new friends for me who teach me so much about Egypt and egyptians every day! Some things I have learn not directly, but secretly. For example asking my egyptian friends, what they think of oriental dance and why they like it and do they see fututre for this art…not ofcourse ever mentioning that in Europe I worked as full time oriental dancer and teacher! I also have a few foriegn friends, expats, who work in other fields in Cairo! And I appreciate every second I spend with them, because I can be Eruopean again in their company, talk and joke and think the european way. Often with egyptians I have to chance my ways and my expressivness to fit it and not to pull too much attencion for myself.

Dancing in Cairo Opera

Kaidi, please tell us about your work in Cairo Opera House. Its the most prestigious place for dancer in Egypt. How big is it and what do they show on stage?

Cairo Opera is a huge area in Zamalek island. From dance point of view, it has the big mostly foreign ballet company and two modern dance companies. One of them is purely for modern subjects and modern dance techniques, and the other one is my company „Forsan el Shark“, performing folklore ispired tales. My work takes place 5 days a week from 5 PM to 9.00PM. This 4 hours of class combined warm-up at the ballet bar, modern dance technique and combinations and finally rehearsals for the performance.

Our last performance was „Ismaha Naasa“ (Her Name Is Naasa). Its a famous old story from South-Egypt. We were working on it for 3 months, than gave 4 performances on Cairo Opera stage and after travelled to Alexandrian Opera Theatre and gave another 5 performances. After my holiday in Estonia I will return to Opera work and we will start working on our next performance „Raya and Skeena“, a notorious serial-killers story from 1920’s Alexandria.

I have heard there are not many female dancers in Egypt. Why?

In Egypt there are many female dancers, but its normally not a popular career for women, because dancing in not considered appropriate work. In my company there are about 30 dancers and more than half are men. The first time I saw my company in full size, I asked the same question – where are all the girls? In Europe in dance studios its the opposite, many girls, very few boys. I was told that good female dancers are hard to find in Egypt. For dancing to be approved by family as daughter’s choice of career in today’s Egypt is a rare sight. Most of the girls in my company come from the Giza Institute of Ballet and after graduation decided to try modern dance instead.

Are you opera dancers seen differently in public eye compared to oriental dancers for example?

Good question! If people around a dancer dont know his profession, they dont have any reaction, no prejudice or stereotypical comments. But if they hear or see from his ID that he is a dancer, the typical egyptian will have a strong opinion, but not always the same. I was advised when joining Cairo Opera not to tell too many people I was dancing oriental, because this is looked down upon. And when I was dealing with issues of work visa, I remembered a story of a foreign bellydancer in Cairo that very well portrais the attitudes of different dancers in Egypt. When she was chased by some harrasser on streets and she turned to the tourist police for help, after seeing her ID as an oriental dancer the police didnt take her seriously and inulted her even. Another story goes for my friend in the Opera. He went to a hospital and when entering they must show the ID. The receptionist was extremly happy to see a ballet dancer written on the card, calling him a gentleman very politley, he added, he has never met an artist from the high class of Opera company.

To be a dancer, how much does it means intrigues within the theatre? How about getting the leading parts? The dance world seems very passionate in this sense.

As much as I have seen and gotten to know the dance world globally, I can tell every country and company has them. Egypt has them especially fierce! Egyptians love drama and gossip, its a normal part of their every-day life. Absorbing dancers in my company its very important for them who they dance with, their positioning in a dance – all this reflect their own little battles and competitions within the company.

In the beginning all dancer were friendly and welcoming towards me. Because I was new and interesting and European, by the way, the only foreigner in this company. By now that I have danced in two performances with this company and proved myself as a skillful dancer and a trustworty team member, the boys respect for me had increased. They see me as a serious respectful white girl. The girls have become jealous as they have learnt Im a talented dancer and a hard worker, therefore threatening their place in the company, may it be the fight for the first line in dance positioning or in taking the solo parts. In the times to come the choreographer will face more difficulty dealing with the girls emotions and jealoussy and my growing position in the team.

How do you deal with it, being in a foreign country and also being the object of jealousy?

I find it very egyptian to be fighting for your rights and position. But I believe I would have to fight for my rightful place in any company in the world. And as for jealousy, this should be taken as a compliment, because other people have seen and reacted to my my achivements.

Is there a primadonna in the company, someone all people adore and worship?

Our company doesnt have a primadonna in the classical ballet sence of meaning. But we do have a few solo dancers, but they have truly earned this privilege. The roles and character they are given are physically and psychologically so demanding that other dancers simply couldnt execute these parts as well.

Who is the audience of your performances?

The main audience are people who are not afraid of modern dance. It is a new thing in Egypt and people have to have an open mind to enjoy the performance. Its not customary for egyptians to see boy toutching girls on the stage, girls rolling on the floor and being thrown to the air, its physical and expressive and can also sometimes have a sexual untertone. So usually the audienc combines high class egyptians, liberals, artists from other fields, young generation, students and tourists. But actually this tickets can be very cheap, with 30 pounds ( 4 EUR) one can get a seat at the back rows.

Egyptian audience is very expressive and doesnt hold back its emotions. The speciality of our company bringing the old and tranditional onto stage with modern ways is something that truly toutches the hearts of egytptians. It the speed of the modern life and modern innovations in egyptian lives can sometimes take away their focus on what actually makes them egyptian in traditional means. But we remind them! If they recognize and old custom in our dances and they remember their grandparents doing this or theirselves in the childhood, the proud national feeling in awaken inside them and they might applaud or cheer for us in the middle of the dance. That is very close to the feeling of tarab in oriental dance! Touthcing the soul of egyptians!

How big is your part in your last performance? Who are your characters?

I had very big role to play in the last performance. Out of 13 dances I participated in 11. Some of my characters are the fellahiin (peasants), mermaids, zar dancers, the virus, warrior and as my „30-seconds of fame“ I even had the chance to do a short bellydance solo within the perfromance. Mentioning all these character one after another might leave a chattered impression but within the context it creats a beautiful folk tale in modern dance.

The story is abour a loving, hard-wroking and friendly married couple Naasa and Ayoub. They get wealthier by time thanks to high work-ethic and skills, but this makes people around them jealous and they send „the evil eye“(in Middle-Eastern superstion it is belived that the evil spirit can take over or weaken the human body) on the husband Ayoub and he gets very sick and the family looses its wealth. Naasa as loving and dedicated wife starts the long and miraculous journey to heal her husband. This is through the spriritual sufi-dance, traditional zar ritual, sea of mermaids and many more. Finally Ayub recovers and they overcome the surrounding jealousy and regain their power and wealth.

In your life in Egypt how many times have you encountered superstition or old beliefs of egyptians?

I havn’t seen much of superstition in Cairo. But I see so many friends of mine wearing Eye of Fatima or other talismans, but more as a street fashion, not many give it heavy meanings. Its is a traditional jewellry that is bought and sold over the country and very popular as a present. As I witnessed forehand as a tourist many years ago, strong superstition and old spiritual beliefs are very much alive in the South-Egypt, because time there simply moves more slowly and old habits and customs are still present in everyday life. I clearly remember an insident when in Aswan a nubian friend of mine gave me his neclace of Fatima’s eye and told me to hold it tight as the old village lady just passing by would send send the evil eye upon me and the neclace would protect me.

A beautiful example of how old belief is brought to modern dance was in our last performance „Isamaha Naasa“ in the zar dance. Old egyptians believed that within the exorsistic ritual of zar when one steps over the sick body 7 times, the body will become stronger and healthier. So in our dance, they boys were lying on the floor hands by the sides and girls stepped over the body 7 times to the rythm of the dance.

This is the magic of art, even if some beliefs are not as strongly present in the society or fading, we bring it to the stage in Cairo Opera and therefore help it to be remembered through art of dance.

How long do you think all this is possible on stage? Should the extremists take over power in Egypt, they will surely forbid all dance and bodily expression on stage.

I don’t believe Egypt will turn out to be like Iran. Now knowing the real egyptian spirit, they cannot live without dance and music. If the Muslim Brotherhood manage to keep the power and impose all their laws on the society, they may only limit the public dancing, but they could never compleatly forbid dancing, this simply wouldnt reflect the opinion of the majority of egyptians.

Have you learnt to speak arabic?

The basic smalltalk is already easy for me. I can express myself freely on street, in taxi and in supermarket. It wasn’t difficult to learn because my work lanquage is only arabic and I have bought some very good books and audio-cd’s from American University of Cairo. So all this combined 24/7, the lanquage just gets stuck to me. I still cant read arabic, only numbers and prices in the markets and the alfabeth and I can only write my name. How did I learn arabic? Well, I started by my book (in franko-arabic), reading dialogs and filling in grammar exercises. But everything that I heard first time on the streets or at work I wrote down on paper on in my mobile memo and before going to sleep repeated to myself 5 times. So the next times when possible I used my new expressions. Right now I speak only in arabic with my friends, every word I don’t know I replace with an english one, so its actually a funny mixed lanquage but the most importants, I can talk and people understand.

But do they react understandingly to your effort of Arabic?

Oh dear, they adore it! Any white foreigner at least trying to speak little arabic will make the egyptians around giggly, happy and surprised!

But how do egyptians take you not being a moslem?

My friends and people in my network don’t have any problem with it. The dance society, already conisered free-mind and liberal, dont differentiate between a muslim and a christian.

How did you in the end get so lucky to be accepted into the company? You can be a good dancers but its importants for someone to notice you.

Before going to the audition I knew I was in wonderful shape for oriental dance but in zeero-shape for modern dance. So a week before I joined a gym and worked out every morning on my other muscles neccessary for a modern dancer. On the day of the audition I gave my maximum and performed my best. Im sure the choreograpgher saw I have done this before but am not in my best possible shape. I had also spoken with her before and told her I havn’t done modern for 5 years, but had much experiance in university. Im sure she saw my potential nevertheless. But there is another special reason why I was accepted to the company. Its because im a foreigner. In Egypt, for any business in any field to have a foreigner working in the team is a sign of quality, matter of prestige. There were no other foriegners in this company before me and they needed me for the prestige. So partly beign accepted to the team was a present for me but I still know that I fought for my position and by now I have proved myself as a great dancer firstly to myself and to dancers and choreographers around me. I feel im in the best shape of my life and I cant wait what the years to come will bring!

How long are You planning to stay in Egypt? Have you thought about it?

I will continue living and working in Egypt as long as it is motivating for me! Im right now happy to be improving in styles I thought are finished for me after my university (I graduated from faculty of choreography). After my university I was focused on oriental dance 100%. But now im in different shape again and im dancing on very high level. I know that I probably would’t be accepted in Estonian or other European Opera teams, because the standards and level is way higher. But nevertheless I feel Im exceeding my limits and learning so much about Egypt, egyptians and the dance world and Cairo Opera has given me this chance. As long as there is dance and work in Egypt, Kaidi will be with Egypt!